Is it all about money - really?

[Smilesback@u]

I remember getting divorced after 23 years of marriage and 3 sons (I am happily remarried now for 11 yrs) and I thought it all came down to money and how sad and pathetic life can be sometimes.  Today I feel that way again.  I am having a bit of a problem thinking that I am supposed to be paying for all expense trips for family get togethers.    I am disappointed, and angry at my DS/DIL.  I found out they will not be visiting for my birthday next month which is also my GD's birthday weekend too.  About a month ago, my DS/DIL came up with the idea of celebrating my 60th and GD birthday together that weekend and meet up at our other DS in Az.  I felt loved and agreed it would be fun.  I made flight and motel arrangements and looked into toddler birthday party for GD.  (I called a couple weeks ago to confirm and DS said it was not for sure because, "it is going to cost a lot to fly all 4 of us"---- hint hint hint).  No bite.     And now today - they are definitely not going to visit.  DIL wants GD to have her 3 year old friends birthday party (designer style of course) and there are no other weekends available.  Is it all about getting me to pay for our get togethers?   (They make enough money).  I did feel mentally prepared, and said I was disappointed, that it wouldn't matter to GD when her bday is celebrated, travel is good this time of year to AZ.  I also admitted that I must respect where they are coming from and that we were not going to be together for everyone's birthdays.  Had to get off the phone... just had a thought...maybe this will be a Surprise birthday party?  Maybe I am the one who is so pathetic?   It feels like I am getting to the point of having *I don't care* relationships with DS as a defense.  Doesn't feel so healthy to me - what gives?   

[Doe]

Smiles-
How about just changing your ticket to go to their house?  It's a lot cheaper to pay for just you than to pay for their whole family.  Wouldn't it be a lot simpler?

[Smilesback@u]

hmmmm, that's a thought?  I actually am looking forward to visiting other DS this time since we have not been there in soooo long.  Just saw DS/DIL/GD Thanksgiving.  My first reaction was probably my best gut instinct - no not this time.  Thanks Doe, you mean well.  I just have to reflect on the direction I want to go in with DS/DIL.  It is a precedent for all 6 sons for us to be paying for everything...and we really do not have that kind of money, and I don't believe in it either.  Ciao,

[Doe]

Oh, I see.  Go for it, then and have a great time!

[Shelby]

hmmmm, that's a thought?  I actually am looking forward to visiting other DS this time since we have not been there in soooo long.  Just saw DS/DIL/GD Thanksgiving.  My first reaction was probably my best gut instinct - no not this time.  Thanks Doe, you mean well.  I just have to reflect on the direction I want to go in with DS/DIL.  It is a precedent for all 6 sons for us to be paying for everything...and we really do not have that kind of money, and I don't believe in it either.  Ciao,

Smiles - it sounds like you have 3 biological sons, and your husband has 3 sons from previous marriage.  You're near 60, still working and don't have a gazillion dollars.  If you're like me, you want to be fair to all AC, and not engage in favoritism.  If you were to fly the DS/DIL/GD to AZ for this visit (and I count that as 3 airfares, not 4) - would you and DH not feel as if you had to make some similar gesture to the other 5 sons and stepsons?  Even a really good fare from most anywhere to AZ would be about $400 round trip.  Per person.  So the gift of air fare to this son would be about $1,200.  If you did the same for the other 5 sons and step sons, that would be a total outlay of over $7,000.  That's a pretty penny.  (Not that all 5 would be at this event, but a similar $$$ expenditure might be made on them). 

You say you really don't have that kind of money - but more importantly you don't really believe in it (paying for all AC expenses) either.  Good for you.  They are adults - working, and should pay their own travel.  I'd just enjoy the visit with the son who lives in AZ, and not worry about the one who wanted you to pay his, DIL's and GK's air fare.  Nuts to that. 

You say it's a precedent for all 6 sons for you to pay for everything.  By that do you mean that you HAVE been paying for everything, or that you haven't, but if you do it will set the precedent?  I hope you haven't been paying for all 6 adult sons.  You and DH do need to take care of yourselves, save for your own retirement, because if you spend it all on the AC, they may not be able to take care of you if your $$$ runs out.   So don't start that precedent now.

If, on the other hand, you and DH HAVE been paying a lot for the 6 adult sons, perhaps it's time to put a stop to it.  No time like the present. 

My DH and I, like you, also do not believe in adult children EXPECTING us to pay for everything.  We were glad to pay for their educations, have helped here and there, but it's clear that they are on their own as far as living expenses, travel, etc.  And I think THEY are better off, knowing they can take care of themselves, as opposed to us paying for things, then having strings attached, etc. 

[Smilesback@u]

You got me good, Shelby.  Thanks for your directness, you figured right.  We try to avoid spending more on one than the other.  Exactly right - and we do help when we can and believe in it, and try hard to not *enable* anyone to freeload.  And you are so right about the strings attached -- when we get involved it is only natural to invest in the outcome.   Thanks for all your support for us to go enjoy ourselves and think of our future.   
   

[herbalescapes]

I think DS/DIL need a good smack for not verifying their finances before making the suggestion.  And if it was all a big ploy to get you to pony up the money, they need 30 whacks with a wet noodle.  Even if it is a surprise party, it's a tacky way to surprise you (tho I hope that theory pans out). 

Are you sure DS was hinting for you to pay when he said they might not be able to afford it?  It could be they just didn't think before making the suggestion or an unexpected expense came up.  I know I have had my motives for things said and done grossly miscalculated.  If in other posts you've pointed this out as a repetitive behavior, accept my apologies.  Without a face to go with the name, I have a really hard time keeping posters' stories straight. 

If you and DH have paid the way in the past, it could just be a habit and not greediness on your DS's part.  I know my own father's pride would never have let him let one of his kids pick up the tab for a family outing.  After several years, I know I and my sibs stopped offering to pay for things.  If you have set the precedent, just back out by not making the offers.  If anyone asks directly, merely point out that while still your children, they are adults and capable.

Since your DS and DIL are adults, it is their decision on how they spend their money.  If they would rather have a blowout birthday party than fly to visit family, that's their decision.  If anyone tried to tell me how I should be spending money, them'd be fightin' words.  I nearly boycotted my  church once because they were doing a big fundraiser and send members letter suggesting contributions based on income levels (exactly how they got everyone's income remains a mystery). 

Happy Birthday and enjoy your visit with your other son.

[Smilesback@u]

Hi herbal - it is kinda hard to keep the posts straight, I agree.  I have strong feelings about being expected to pay too in more than one situation -- I even get pissy about the nickel or dime that comes in the mail wanting me to donate.  My dad is like that too and he gets irate whenever I make the gesture to pick up the tab-- it is embarrassing actually as he calls me out on it in public -- hey, that's him.  We are a big family with 6 sons, when we get together at a restaurant it really adds up -- and only one is married.  Won't be long and we will have doubled in size.  Right now it costs around $250 when we eat out at a nice restaurant for dinner (somebody orders appetizers, and drinks and the tab goes up and up).  One meal, I can see doing that when we visit, but not every meal.  Thanks for the words for how to express *No, I am not paying*.  That helps as well as your understanding how I might feel from the ruse to get me to pay or to surprise me, and maybe something came up.  Who knows?  I am trying to get rid of my guilt, and set the record straight that we will not be spending money like there is no tomorrow.  Thanks again and I will not make the offer to pick up the tab and explain up front that we will be going *Dutch*.  I usually cook a big family dinner but not every meal.   

[Shelby]

Smiles - I read some of your other posts, and realized that your sons range in age from 24 to about 33.  Only one is married.  I think you are wise to stand your ground NOW about paying for things - because whatever you do for this DS and DIL, you'll need to do for the other sons when they get married.  You were wonderful to go visit DS and DIL recently, and babysit SEVERAL DAYS so they could take a trip.  That makes you saints in my book.  Just remember that the next 5 sons will - reasonably - think that when their time comes you'll do the same for them. 

I also think, now that I've read some of your older posts - that since you flew to NYC to see them recently, paid your own lodging at B&B (except when they left on a little trip and left you to babysit the GKs) and paid your own meals (even if you did not take them to restaurants all the time) - you certainly have done enough for them recently.  For they to even HINT that you should pay their air fare to Phoenix is pretty self-absorbed on their part, IMO.   You spent LOTS to visit them at Tksgv and be a free babysitter.  That's enough. 

I hope Herbal is right about them having unexpected expenses, but that doesn't mean that you should pay for their airfare.  It just means they should save for a visit to Phoenix NEXT year if they want.  AFter all, you just gave them a nice little holiday when you babysat the kids for a few days. 

As far as the surprise party - I'm guessing it won't happen.  I'd like to be wrong - but I would suggest not getting your hopes up. 

[Smilesback@u]

Yes, pretty true -- everybody turns 38, 34, 30, 27, 25 - twins this year.  It really is supposed to get easier as your children grow up into adults right?  We hold to that belief anyways, unless there are mental and physical debilities making them dependents all their lives.  So I accept responsibility up to a point to show generosity of spirit to them, turn the other cheek, think the best of them and give them an appropriate gift on birthdays and Christmas.  It is just that some of these unmapped waters with DS/DIL/GD have brought me to my knees and WWU.  We really have our differences I think about living life frugally vs living it up.  Everyone's heart may be in the right place, and I just have to be clearer about what I want.  They may not like it or agree and think I am stingy, but so what else is new?  I was frugal with a young family too.  So end of story here is that after spending all that money for the 2 trips to NY, we decided at Christmas time to pay for 3  sons to visit their GM, who is in assisted living.  It was great too, and so glad we did.  She was soooo happy to see us.  There were airfares, lodging, meals, 2 rental cars, and all the bother, but so worth it.  We are giving back to her after all too.  And we figured we owed them more time together on a trip.  Our other 2 sons couldn't make that trip, the one in Phx had just had surgery and the other doesn't fly (but they have been helped too, it all adds up over time).  We do keep an eye on things like that to be fair to all.  But enough already, with my guilt tripping.  I choose to be free of guilt today.  I know there are so many others less fortunate.  Thank you shelby for caring -- sending you love.     

[Shelby]

Smiles -- It sounds like you have achieved a great balance.  You have 6 sons between you - each at different stages of life with different needs - which they need to meet themselves.  And you are seeing to it that they do that. 

I think you have been very fair to all.  Fair does not necessarily mean identical.  You spent $$$ to visit the NYC son and provide free babysitting for him.  For 3 others, you spent $$$ to fly them to visit their GM.  That doesn't mean you have to fly the NYC son anywhere - he already got his!!!

If you have a mother or MIL in assisted living, you know how expensive that can be.  And of course that is self-pay unless you have long term care insurance.  So you need to be frugal.  Doesn't matter what the kids think.  They should respect you being frugal.  Some young couples today need to learn the meaning of the word.  My FIL was frugal - and now in his 90's, we pay his assisted living bills from HIS bank account.  How lucky are we that he and my MIL were frugal - now his expenses are not a burden on DH and me.  My DH and I think our AC should be GLAD we have been frugal - and that should mean no $$$ burden to our children 20 years from now.  What a great gift to the kids! 

No, Smiles, no guilt trips.  Go to AZ, baggage free! 

[Smilesback@u]

Shelby you are a treat to the heart!  Thank you for being here and caring about me and others.  I know our group here is unique and I really appreciate the aliveness we give to each other.  Your sharing is so inspiring and truly helpful.  Being understanding is the greatest gift of life you can give.  We too have the good fortune to have parents support themselves financially in their old age and we plan to do the same.  Visiting them, appreciating them and loving them to the very end is what we give back.  It might mean not giving away our money now to our sons, but we will not need to take away our sons' life earnings in our old age.  We save, and not everyone makes enough money to do that.  So we can expect to pay our own way until we die.  Speaking of which, I am working everyday on becoming fit and healthy to hold back the rushing waters of old age.  One day, though, the dam will not be strong enough and I will be washed away.  Down beat to end on, so gotta say that the snow is melting and I will be having a safe commute tomorrow.  Onward!  You have a wonderful day Shelby, sending you love...

[Ruth]

Smiles, I always love your posts.  I think we are in similar circumstances with the concerns you express.  A lot of our problem revolves around (IMO) not really knowing for sure what we are actually able to do financially for our a/c and g/c, and not really sure what is in the best interest for us to do for our a/c and g/c.  It used to to seem very simple to me, but now that I'm pushing 60, I find myself grossly uncertain as to how much money to turn loose of and how much to keep put back on a long term basis.  This makes it far more complicated for dp's these days, vs the depression days, because the a/c know the parents have a stash, and they don't always view it the way we do. 

My dd struggles, due to divorce, a job that is inadequate to meet expenses, injury and work setbacks of her ex-dh, (ie child support) and the expenses of my two g/s.  Every month I contribute half their tuition for private school.  I also sporadically contribute to my ds's college tuition, but not regularly as he is 31 yrs old and only has self to support.   But I'm never certain if I've done enough, done too much, or been fair.  One thing is for sure in my case, I do not foot the bill for restaurant, recreational type things with the adult children.  These are luxuries in life, and only for the self supporting, not on my (and dh's) dime.  Now I often do for the g/c, but meals we always take at home and in no way whatsoever do I consider footing the bill for vacations (I'll also lump expensive cell phones and cable bills in with that).  I try to focus on necessities.  I also sometimes ask - "how are ends meeting this month?  did you get the tuition paid and books bought?"  I feel its appropriate to ask, and the a/c need to learn to have to ask rather than standing their with a hand out. 

I would like for you to be released from this burden.  I suggest you work more toward presenting yourself as the mountain rather than mohamet.  Let them learn to expect they are supposed to come to see you, and do things for you because they love you.  But if it sounds like fun and you have the means, take a trip out to see one or all of them and don't have a second of guilt about it.  If they want to be petty and score keep, that is their problem.  I don't have any patience or time for that sort of thing in my life any more.  You are an adult, and you can please yourself.

[Smilesback@u]

Oh my Ruth, what you said really got my attention.  You really are doing a lot for your DD and DS with $$ help.  Definitely agree we are not so certain about the financial future --- even though we have saved for retirement. It could be gone like bankruptcies taking away pensions etc.   Totally we want to focus only helping when absolutely necessary.  I am so tempted to pay for Internet for one son who doesn't have it, and he reasons that he doesn't need it.  (So no online poker, or adult chats -- that's probably a very good thing).  But nowadays some of the extras are becoming necessities -- looking for jobs, apartments, paying bills, everything seems a lot easier if you do it online, staying connected with family etc if you have email.  But if he chooses to not have an Internet bill, I am not going to create one and pay for it.  How disrespectful I would be to do that IMO.  Yes - be a Mountain not a mohamed.  Got that!  No hand out -- good pictures.  I am getting rid of the guilt bag, but still have some fear that they won't make the effort with me and we will lose connections.  I will visit when I can though like you said, if it pleases me, and not pay an arm and a leg to see them either.  Thanks Ruth, we really are in the same boat it seems.  sending hugs...

[Ruth]

After writing before, I chilled out with a cup of tea and gave it a little more thought Smiles  My brain works that way these days, in fits and starts.  Anyway, what I said about restaurants - a little incorrect - I was reading into your story that this is an often event, and more just for nourishment rather than an occasion.  Not a 'go get your coat Mama we're going out!' occasion.  Sometimes, the idea just comes up and we all decide it would be neat to go to somebody's favorite restaurant, and dh and I would say to whomever opts to go, 'get anything you want, guys!  We're spotting it!'   And those times are joyful!   some years ago, my dd and I started tradition of taking each other out for breakfast on b/d.  We still do this, and even though she's always harping on me  ' now get anything you want!  no!  get the big plate!' I still usually get the blue plate special, cos she's paying!

I love more than anything to share, and give, and see others' faces light up.  You know, I would even consider giving that kid a gift of internet for one year, considering the way you describe it.    Even though I am by nature a hoarder, Smiles, I am learning to let go and give more than I used to.  I'm not doing it out of a sense of guilt, or with the goal in mind of buying favors or affection.  It is also as different as night is from day, from the selfish demanding 'you owe me' mode of giving.  Once you stop playing this game, it ceases to be a source of torture for you.  Smiles, it is also possible that because you have an internal trigger in this area, you are reading more into this than there is, it could be that the a/c are not thinking of it the way you are.  Maybe its just the way they 'look' (some people look mad or worried all the time, but it is just their face).  And lot of people in that age range have a disturbing flash point, are a little blunt, speak out quickly about any and everything. 

forgive me for rambling on and on.....  what was the question again?