Hello

[Sassy]

Chrisky, just so you know I did not get the impression you wanted details about their financial lives from your post.  You were clear you were trying to make conversation and show an interest in what's going on their lives.  I didn't think you were prying or inappropriate to do so.  If you knew someone has health problems and didn't inquire how she was, that could be construed as not caring.  Sometimes it becomes, what's a person to do?  I know how hard it can be to walk that line.   And conversation about the weather and the Dodgers can be so boring.  I only mentioned privacy just as another plausible explanation for her deferring to her husband on those topics.  Sometimes we can feel rejection when it's not about us, it's about them.

Looking forward to your update. 

[justanoldgrandma]

I'm with Sassy; I can tell that you and your dh are very supportive and noncritical.  I was just going by my dss who may ask for an opinion on a house and may not!  Actually, my dills are less touchy on those issues than dss bc dss feel it's their decision...... very thin line for us, between giving advice and acting like we don't care!

DILs are fairly private on their health issues; share w moms, I'm sure, which is understandable.  Have opened a bit more w time.  However, they haven't had the health issues your dil has had which makes a difference.   I would feel as you do, finding out later there was a serious issue.

Been thinking of you and hoping the meeting w ds went well. 

[Chrisky]

Since I'm up at this ungodly hour, decided to post about our meeting with DS. 
We saw the GDs, spent about 1 1/2 hours with them, it was great, took some pics. I had brought some mini bottles of nail polish for them and they proceeded to paint DH's toe nails this bright sparkly pink colour! It's an on-going joke with them- "only their grandpa wears nail polish"!
Then the GDs left, for lunch at some kiddies restaurant - don't know who picked them up, maybe DIL, but never saw her.
DS made coffee and we started.  I asked him to go first, wanted to know what he meant by we didn't respect her etc.  He did admit that all these little issues have ballooned into something big because of his lack of talking to us sooner.  It seems that it's a lot of little things that bother DIL, but neither of them say anything until 5 years down the road.  Things like DIL doesn't like how I said something, my tone of voice, or she thought we were favouring one GD over the other.  He also said because of his long hours at work, on the weekends he doesn't always want to have people over or go anywhere. We listened, agreed with some of his thoughts, were very conscious of not being critical or interrupting him.

Then I started. I had my list, and first of all showed him how little time we spend with his family. We told him we are very aware of his hours and how it affects family as he knows DH did quite a lot of shift work when DS was growing up, so I was the primary parent.  We told him that our biggest frustration was not seeing or even getting return phone calls from DIL & especially the GDs. I mentioned that we have absolutely no problem with DIL, we think they are both excellent parents, have both done well in raising them, that we're very proud of his accomplishments and the way DIL has spent time with the girls. We said we absolutely loved the time we spent on our one week vacation with them, we enjoyed spending time with him and felt a little closer to DIL.

We mentioned that we feel under a microscope whenever we're with them. That everything we say, do, look, laugh is scrutinized all the time.  We said we have no problem with her parents, in fact enjoy our conversations with them.  We feel that our family is second class, and that there have been occasions when family have been visiting from out of town (older family who they won't see again because they can't travel now) and they are never willing to adjust their schedule to at least visit these people even for an hour.  We said we were very hurt by that. 

We said we've offered countless times to babysit, DH has offered to paint etc. to help because they don't always have the time,
I've e-mailed DIL telling her (when she wasn't well) that I would do anything she asked of me, but to no avail. Not even a thanks, I'll let you know. 

We did say, and I think I repeated myself on this to DS, that we truly believe that DIL will never allow us to babysit the GDs. We've raised him to the best of our ability, we think we did a good job and he has turned out to be a kind, generous, thoughtful, caring person, and that we must have done something right, because DIL married him!

There were other things said, can't remember now, but all in all DH and I thought it went well. I told DS it's too bad DIL isn't here to discuss things, but I am willing to do whatever necessary to improve this situation.  We asked DS, "so now, what's the next step?  What do think we all need to do to improve this situation?"  His answer was that he hadn't thought about it!  (My thinking on this is he has to clear it with DIL, that's OK, but it would have been easier if she had been there)
I told DS, if DIL feels more comfortable, she can e-mail me and tell me one thing I could do to improve this

He listened, we listened, and in the end nothing was resolved.  I'm feeling better about this, not quite as nervous, but I really don't know what to think.  We'll see what happens in the weeks to come. 

Thanks for reading this exceptionally long post, and again I appreciate any thoughts and questions.

[Begonia]

He listened, we listened, and in the end nothing was resolved.  I'm feeling better about this, not quite as nervous,

Chrisky:  I think your quote says a lot.  That you each were listened to and that you feel better is real progress.  Sometimes there are no definite answers, just a feeling that things are going better.  And sometimes that is enough without dredging up all the why's and wherefore's.  I would congratulate you on this and your DS and DIL too.  Enjoy this first step without expecting more right now--I would bet the rest will sort itself out if you give DS and DIL some space.  And maybe just a little card to DIL saying you appreciate her as a mom to your GC, etc. so she doesn't feel left out, even though she did not want to be included.  Love is so powerful.   

[Pooh]

Welcome Chrisky and so sorry for your troubles.  You have got great advice and I agree with the others, I think this upcoming meeting with DS will be important for the relationship.  I think you are really going to have to figure out the words to make him understand that you are not mad at DIL, just upset that you sometimes feel left out.  I think the key is going to be going through DS and hoping he carries the mail back that you guys just want to be more involved with the GC.  I would tread very carefully with any criticism of DIL to him, as most of the time, it seems with the stories here, that backfires badly.  If you can make it about you, GC, DH and him, it might go farther.

You said that DS feels like DH has disrespected DIL?   Was there an incident between them?

[Belle]

Chrisky - it sounds like you overall did the right thing....you listened, and you were listened to.  So often, these "meetings" turn into arguments and fights.  I'm so glad that you all had the patience with one another to discuss instead of argue.  Kudos to you.

I'm in agreement that I don't consider any of that real mistreatment, but I definitely see a difference in expectations.  I can't help but notice a reoccuring theme in your posts, and I hope you won't be offended that I'm pointing it out.  You've mentioned several times that you value how DIL has raised your GD's, she's a good mother, etc.  That's a very positive thing, and I think your intentions are good when you say that.  But your DIL may perceive that differently than what you intend, possibly.  Ok, I am pretty sure I would (and I have).  Maybe your DIL is getting the vibe that its all she's good for to you, is to raise your granddaughters.  Maybe go a step further, and value her as the person she is, the person she was before her children.  I don't know, value her in other ways.  Fashion sense?  Career?  Creativity?  Is there a way you can engage her to make her feel valued as more than "Mommy?" 

When (if) speaking with her, I wouldn't even mention the children.  She knows she's a good mother, what she (and all of us!) need to feel is that we have some value other than being a mother.  Maybe she feels like your only interest in her is her children...I can tell you from personal experience, that hurts to think/feel that way...that your sole purpose on this earth is to provide someone else with grandchildren.  It feels rotten.  My own MIL has no idea who I really am.  I would bet $50 right now that she doesn't even remember my eye color or my middle name, or what my favorite hobbies are....all she knows about me is that I gave her a granddaughter that she can't see.  I'm just saying, there's a possibility that our situation may be different if she'd taken some time to know the real me, instead of being so tunnel-vision-focused on my daughter.  I'd be a lot more willing to work on this if I didn't feel absolutely discarded as a person and only thought of as "GC's wicked mommy."  Not that you feel that way, I'm just saying.   

Begonia was so right - love is so powerful.  Maybe your DIL isn't feeling the love.  Maybe she's feeling like you're only interested in her children.  I know you've tried to reach out to her.  Keep trying, but try to engage her in a way that doesn't push her buttons or boundaries or drive her mad or make her feel obligated.  You could invite her to a nice lunch (without the children!) or maybe invite her to go get a pedicure with you, send her a special card, just to her, or maybe send her an orchid.  Who doesn't love orchids? 

And sometimes, in any relationship, we have to create an interest.  Idunno, scrapbooking for example.  If she enjoys scrapbooking maybe try something like "I've heard you make beautiful albums.  I'm just no good at it, would you be willing to help me put one together?"  You two may indeed not have much in common, but if you're willing to share her interests in order to get to know her, she may be more willing to share your interest...ie, your grandchildren.     

I really do believe that your situation hasn't reached the point of no return, it can still be mended.  But it sounds like she's feeling shafted somehow, and I wouldn't expect her to make that step to reach out to you.  You may have to put a little thought and work into it.  Some relationships just require some work!  Exhausting, possibly, but so worth it. 

But at the end of the day, you can only try so hard.  I realize I've thrown a lot out there, but this isn't all about DIL, this is about you too.  We all have to accept responsibility for our individual parts in our situations.  If at the end of the day you can look in the mirror and feel good about the efforts you've put forth, then no one can expect more than that from you.  Hey, at least you are willing to try and talk to your DIL, mine really won't have anything to do with me, never did.  But when I got pregnant with our first child, her claws and fangs came out in anticipation of the pending birth.....like a bloodthirsty warewolf, and she starting crying "grandparents rights! Grandparents rights!" before there was even a child to visit.  Who wouldn't withdraw from that???  I'm sure that's not the way she meant to come accross, but that's definitely the way it felt to me and she never attempted to correct it.

Sending lots of love your way.  I hope it works out, you sound like a wonderful person,  maybe you could come be my MIL. 

   

[justanoldgrandma]

Belle has some good points there about making dil feel important in her own right, not just someone to have ds return phone calls and to arrange for you to see gd.  She doesn't sound like a cooperative dil by any means and certainly doesn't make efforts to make your family closer; so some of Belle's ideas could work to boost her feeling of being worthy and loved; perhaps she suffers from some self-esteem problems and feels close only to her own family; you and dh may be seen as people taking ds's home time away since he travels so much.  In fact, her actions seem jealous and selfish since you don't get any feedback from her as to her neglect of you.

You and your dh have done so much to help the family and it's not fair that they haven't returned calls and allowed more visits from gd.  But as Begonia said, your ds and you both spoke and listened and he will be the messenger to tell his wife she is NOT hated at all by you and dh.  I would continue not to criticize dil; the grievances you have toward her not allowing the gd to visit and such have been said; you could keep it in no longer and it's good to have it out.

I would try to feel that your grievances have been said and move on from there.  It's in ds's court now to relay the messages.  It sounds like he doesn't feel that you "attacked" his wife at all and that's very important. 

With his work and travel you may not get a lot of feedback from him for a while..... if you can wait, he may get back to you w some solutions that you asked for. 

It is important not to criticize dil in any way bc it's all been said, well, all that you could say.  Just trust ds's love for you and dh; that he will convey to his wife your concerns and try to include you more in their lives.

I do think you've done all you can for now bc the big meeting is over and after some time I feel you will hear from him on all this..... like time w them..... and a card to dil as someone said, small things to know she's valued may speed things along.

You did well!  Now try to relax bc other than small gestures to dil, the ball is in ds's court!

[Chrisky]

Begonia, I like your card idea, I'll have to think about what to say.

Pooh, there has never been an incident between DIL & DH.

Belle, I understand what you've written and appreciate your comments.  I didn't mention it but I have complimented DIL on a lot of other things.  Her decorating skills, choices of colours, her excellent food that she serves whenever we eat. When we were decorating our other home, I showed her our paint colours and asked her opinion about what she thought.  After her operation we sent her flowers when she returned home (no thank you for that).  I'd love to do something with her, but I don't know what she likes to do at all.  That stems from her lack of conversation with us.  I know she likes to do cruises, but when we ask about the cruises they've taken, even ask her directly, it's DS to answers. We have to beg to see pictures.  Yes, I know it's not just about DIL, but really, I'm trying to bend over backwards here to do anything she wants to improve this and she doesn't even want to sit down and discuss it at all.  DS told us yesterday that she feels she's tried.  Tried? How, by ignoring us? Not even showing a minute concern for how we are? 

Hopefully DS will get our message across to DIL that we truely want to improve this and want to move forward.  We'll see.

Justanoldgrandma, I was just finishing this post when your message came. in.
I'm glad you mentioned the self-esteem problems.  That has been suggested to me as well by a friend who deals with women that have that problem.  I'm not saying DIL has these problems, but it's a thought. 
Yes, I will not critize DIL, we've had our say and want to move ahead.  The card suggestion is excellent.  Maybe I can find one with already printed message that is appropriate.  I'm afraid if I write something myself I'll blow it.

[Pen]

I'm sorry, but I'm looking at this way differently due to my situation.

DIL loses nothing by not being part of a resolution. She keeps her man, her kids, her FOO. DS is then put in a position of losing his FOO or losing DIL & the children, but at least he gets a choice. The ILs lose DS, DIL & the GC and don't get a say in the matter, just because they had the audacity to give birth to a son. They have the most to lose, so they are the ones dancing around trying to please a DIL who really can't (or won't) articulate what they've done wrong and what they need to fix. My take is that she knows she's got the power and she's playing games with it to see who will dance to her tune. If they dance, win! If they don't, double win!! She's rid of them!

For us it took DS speaking up & demanding time with his FOO to turn things around. It's not close to equal, but it is much better. I still do a bit of a dance, but at least DIL is dancing, too. Perhaps one day we'll be completely relaxed and comfortable around each other.

Belle, your suggestions for broaching a relationship with a DIL are great, and I hope they work for you, Chrisky, if you ever decide to try them. (My DIL wouldn't want to spend any more time with me than she has to, so they wouldn't work in my situation. When she's forced to be here she's watching movies on her phone with ear buds in...we're pretty boring to her, I guess.)

Chrisky, from my POV you've been a thoughtful, kind MIL. I hope your DS can communicate your thoughts well and that your DIL is open to them. Best wishes to you all.

[Pooh]

I think you did a great job with the meeting and it truly is in their hands now.  I love all the suggestions and I think you have opened the door for them to step through.  I hope they take that step.

[Belle]

Idunno then, I'm stymied here.  Maybe she's happy with an "arm's length relationship," some folks just are.  It doesn't help those who want to be close to them, but no one can change that if that's just how they are.  She may just be one of those people.  I would just back-off altogether.  Send a card when its appropriate to remember a birthday or whatever, but don't push a personal relationship.  She may not want that like you do.  I'm just thinking if you back off and give her space, she wouldn't have a reason to make up reasons to push you away, ya know?  Your one-on-one time with your grandchildren may not ever reach the level you want it to, but do appreciate and value the relationship you DO have with them because so many grandparents have lost that priviledge. 

You can find other ways to be there for your grandchildren besides just babysitting them.  Maybe ask DH and DIL if it would be ok for you for come to their dance recitals, soccer games, school programs and events, etc.  I'm sure you're already taking advantage of those opportunities.    It means a lot to kids when their families come to those sorts of things, not just their parents. 



 

[Begonia]

Chrisky:  Great awareness!!  There is so much to learn from each other!  I really relate to your posts about this. 

I agree that one of those cards that just have a message without you writing a bunch of things is best.  The message you want to give is that DS, DH and you did not gang up on her when you had your meeting.  Just my opinion. 

And since we can never know what goes on in our DS and DD relationships, it might be there are reasons that you have never ever thought of that she is distant.  In my own case with DIL, I can see that with her father in prison and her mother still hanging in there with him after years of abuse, prison, arrests for DUI, etc. that DIL is just plain embarrassed that I will ask something in the way of conversation...."How's your mom doing?"  and then she feels as if she has to say something.  I get bits and pieces from my DS but never, ever ask anything anymore---I have heard enough of the drama already anyway. 

And I never get a thank you either, as I have mentioned on other threads.  But I believe in my heart it is not mean-spirited, although I get hurt about it, I can see just how much is on their plates.  Just the other day my daughter said, "Did ___say thanks for the gift card? I told her to."  Well, GD is a teenager...I really don't expect it.  I made sure my DD knew I was not holding DD responsible....we joked about it. 

And you say your DS is gone quite a bit. I can't remember all you have said about that, but that is a struggle for any wife and it does cause lots of problems between couples that are private.  My son travels for work and he is in exotic places while my DIL keeps all the schedules for the kids plus worrying about her dysfunctional family...and she is not well herself.  And if I would go there and take care of the kids, what might her mother say to her?  It is very complicated to be a MIL, DIL or a couple.  Lots of pressures.   

I have certainly found that less is best...since I have lowered my expectations of DD DS, etc.  Things have been smoother.  At first it tore my heart out that I was not invited to events but then I realized it was a favor because of DIL's goofy family.  And I told both DS and DD years ago that I didn't want to hear about their personal problems or finances.  That caused a two year rift but we got through that too. 

Blessings to you for your BIG heart and your willingness to look at so many angles.  Choose what you want and leave the rest is something I saw on a post when I first posted here.  That has served me well. 

[pam1]

I guess I'm pretty confused by the responses here.  By all accounts the DIL *has* stayed in touch and visited, the issue seems to me that it is not enough to Chrisky's liking.  Not that DIL hasn't, won't or whatnot. 

My perspective is that the visits and amounts that Chrisky has listed is a very normal and reasonable amount.  Add into it that the DIL from all accounts has been suffering from a major illness and I'm not sure how this is all adding up to the OP being maligned or cut out.  It sounds like DIL is a woman with a very full plate and doing the best she can and the results are obvious, she has good kids! 

IMO, this is the last thing the DIL needs to hear.  I think everyone has a natural right to their privacy and medical information, I think everyone has the right to decide what kind of relationship they would like to have with others. 

[Sassy]

Idunno then, I'm stymied here.  Maybe she's happy with an "arm's length relationship," some folks just are.  It doesn't help those who want to be close to them, but no one can change that if that's just how they are.  She may just be one of those people.  I would just back-off altogether.  Send a card when its appropriate to remember a birthday or whatever, but don't push a personal relationship.  She may not want that like you do.  I'm just thinking if you back off and give her space, she wouldn't have a reason to make up reasons to push you away, ya know?

Belle, that is the impression I am getting, too.

We told him that our biggest frustration was not seeing or even getting return phone calls from DIL & especially the GDs.

Chrisky, maybe this is a situation where seeing the glass as half full can help you enjoy what simply is.  It's wonderful that you do get to see the GCs.  29 times in 44 months, about every 6 weeks, doesn't sound bad, but I am not a grandmother.  Going away on a week long vacation with them sounds amazing.   I see there is a lot of opportunity for you the way things are.  I know it's not as much as you'd like, but (as my own grandmother used to say) it's nothing to sneeze at either.

Whether or not DIL returns your calls is not up to your son, as you know. Which I understand is why you hoped DIL'd be a part of this meeting.  But if she happens to be satisfied with and accepts how things are presently, then she wouldn't feel compelled to attend.  If DIL doesn't want to talk on the phone, my personal feeling is it's probably best she doesn't.   I myself don't want people to call me socially out of a sense of obligation, but rather out of desire.  If the desire to talk to me is not there, intrinsically, that's going to be reflected in the quality of the conversation.   My thought is while it might make you feel good momentarily to have her phone you, in the long run that could make more trouble.

It is entirely up to DS if he returns your calls faster than 3 or 4 days.  If you thinks she's witholding messages from him, perhaps he has a cell to text to, or work number, or email you can also try him on.  Or if he'd be willing to keep you abreast of his travel schedule each week, so you know when to expect a returned call.  Is that checking-in in advance the kind of relationship a man wants with his parents, I'm not sure.  DS may also become willing to assist his children in phoning you.  Since the phone calls are your biggest frustration, I hope what DS took away from the conversation is what he can do to help alleviate your frustration.

If the situation doesn't change, I hope that you can enjoy the many blessings you do have.  No relationship is perfect, and I hope you can find comfort in the positives in this one.

[herbalescapes]

I recommend reading some of Deborah Tannen.  She wrote a book about 25 years ago about communication styles and has since written many more on different subsets of communication differences.  A lot of misunderstandings arise because we have different styles of conversation, but because we are unaware of style differences, we make moral judgements.  Consider someone who has an indirect questioning style.  They would never dream of asking about someone directly; instead, they make statements about themselves and expect the other person to makes similar statements about themselves.  If I were an indirect questioner I would say something like, "My kids all had the flu last week."  I expect you to say, "Two of mine did, but the youngest didn't."  But if you are a direct questioner, you feel like I'm full of myself because I talk about my kids but didn't bother to ask about yours.  When our conversation styles are similar, it goes smoothly.  When our styles differ, problems arise.  And what starts as a style difference can lead to huge family rifts.

You say DS says DIL feels she has tried with you and DH.  Maybe in her communication style and lifestyle she has tried with you, but in you can't recognize it because you have a totally different frame of interaction.  So you feel she never tries and she feels you ignore her attempts then complain about her. 

How often should GPs see the GC?  Geography and work schedules certainly play a role, but there's no one answer.  Think of it this way.   Let's say a couple has sex once a week.  One partner might feel they have sex all the time; the other may feel like they never have sex.  Assuming they are only having sex with each other, who is right?  They both are.  There's no correct answer to how often a couple should have sex. One couple may be happy with once a month, one couple may be happy with once a day.  It's only a problem when one partner wants only once a month while the other partner wants once a day.  It's the same with visiting family.  For some, once a week is not enough.  For others, once a year is too claustrophobic.  It's only a problem when relatives have different expectations. 

I would recommend not comparing your situation with the other GPs.  There are a host of reasons why the maternal and paternal sides of the family get different treatment.  Gone are the days when the wife is the family social secretary so you can blame DIL if your side of the family feels second rate.  However busy DS is, you are his relatives and therefore his responsibility.  If a DIL wants to pick up her husband's slack, that's great.  But if she doesn't want to for whatever reason, you shouldn't feel she is slighting you.  I know this gives the maternal relatives a huge edge since women are still better adept and willing to maintain family ties.  Maybe think of it as payback that you never had to worry about DS coming home from school pregnant.  Sure, he might have impregnated someone, but that's not the same. 

It sounds like you have some good stuff going on in the family.  Wasn't it Oprah that pushed the gratitude journal?  I did that for awhile and it really made me appreciate what I had more.  I wasn't having family issues at the time, but we had just moved to a new area, I didn't know anyone and I had two little ones.  I felt really isolated.  The journal helped me appreciate what I had. 

There are plenty of ways to stay in touch with distant GC.  It may be only an hour or two away, but think of it like a three day's journey and try other means of staying in touch.  If calls aren't returned, don't give up.  Soon the GDs will be old enough to listen to messages on their own.  They may not return your calls either, but they'll know you stayed in touch.  Check out the internet for different ideas. 

Good Luck.